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Are the classes worth it?

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bobismighty

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Post Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:47 am

Are the classes worth it?

I went over to New Horizons today and checked out their program. I didn't realize until then that the course was only for 5 days. It seems a little rushed to me; I mean, that's a lot of information to pack in and I don't want to just "know" the information, I want to KNOW it. At over $2100 for the course, I want to be sure it's worth it.

Any advice on this? Are those boot camps worth it? Or are some of the self study programs just as good?

The main reason I wanted a class was for the hands on part of it, and it seems like it may be a little rushed to get that much in.

Thanks for the input.
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venom77

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Post Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:09 pm

Re: Are the classes worth it?

Hi bobismighty,

And welcome to EH-Net! :)

What sort of background in computers do you have?
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don

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Post Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:28 pm

Re: Are the classes worth it?

A lot to answer, so let's see...

$2100 for a boot camp is a good price, but as in all things, you get what you pay for.

A boot camp is more of a review to get you to pass the exam. So 2 things to mention here. 1. You need to go into ANY boot camp with prior knowledge, experience and study time. 2. A boot camp will not get you to "KNOW" it the way you want. That comes with time and experience.

Read this article by Dan Hoffman on CEH self study:

Review: CEH Via Self Study

The hands on portions of a boot camp are a definite bonus but vary depending on who is providing the class and of course who the instructor is. I've never taken a course with New Horizons, so I'll leave that to others to reply with their thoughts on their instructors and last minute substitutions.

My article my also help as it covers doing a CEH Boot Camp:

So You Want To Hack For A Living?

Here's my plug which I'm sure most of you knew was coming...  ;)

Our CEH instructor for ChicagoCon is Andrew Whitaker, author of the Cisco Press book on Pen Testing. Check out the details of the course. Our partner Training Camp who is providing the course is an EC-Council ATC of the Year. It is more expensive than New Horizons but cheaper than Training Camp's retail pricing. Also you get a lot more at ChicagoCon than at any other boot camp. Of course if price is an issue and ANYONE was interested in attending, contact me directly, and I'll do what I can.

Hope this helps,
Don
CISSP, MCSE, CSTA, Security+ SME
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bobismighty

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Post Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:38 pm

Re: Are the classes worth it?

Thanks for the Welcome and the replies  :)


To answer your question BillV:
I've been working "professionally" in the IT field for 3-4 years, but was tinkering way before then. My current certs are A+, Network+, and CCNA.
I've fooled around with penetration testing before, so I'm not completely new to it, I just want to learn more and have a certification to prove it.


And thanks Don, for the links.
I actually had just read Dan Hoffman's article before I posted and it kind of got me thinking.
I would really like hands on, seeing as all my other certs I just studied myself. I wanted to make sure I actually understood and could do what I was taught.
How much is ChicagoCon?
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venom77

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Post Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:48 pm

Re: Are the classes worth it?

Excellent :)

As Don mentioned, ChicagoCon will be a little more expensive, but the instructor will more than likely be far greater than what you will receive at New Horizons.

I took the CEH v5 course through New Horizons, and I've regretted it ever since. My instructor did not have the experience necessary to teach the course. He could not cover all of the material in the week class (and I'd be surprised if any course did). In my opinion, it did not prep me well for the exam (though I did pass on the first round). On top of that, it took me apx. 6 months to get into a CEH class at New Horizons. My class was consistently canceled and re-scheduled for a later date, and the one I finally got to take was 6 months from when I signed up. I know this is not the case at all New Horizons, but I have heard several other people complain about the same problem.

Same with the instructor. Find out who is teaching the class and what sort of background they have. Do a search on them to see what you come up with. Some of them may look decent on paper (mine did), but I honestly think I knew more than he did. All we did in class is go over the slides, and follow the instructions in the lab manual. You can do just as well by buying the courseware from EC-Council and studying the labs (and then some) on your own.

Anyway, that's my rant on that. I'm not saying it's exactly what you might face, but is a possibility.

Again, I would recommend taking the class at ChicagoCon if the finances and time are available to you :)

Hope that helps some

Bill
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don

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Post Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:55 pm

Re: Are the classes worth it?

Pricing can be found on our Register Now page:
http://www.chicagocon.com/content/view/14/22/

Our CEH course is $3195 and I can extend the early registration discount of $200 off if you contact me directly.

In fact... I'll go one better...

http://www.ethicalhacker.net/component/ ... ic,1636.0/

See you in Chicago,
Don
CISSP, MCSE, CSTA, Security+ SME
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bobismighty

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Post Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:19 pm

Re: Are the classes worth it?

Hmmm, well, thanks for the advice guys. It's made me think twice about New Horizons. I can't find much of anything on the instructor.

ChicagoCon seems a little too close and I'm not really sure if I'd be prepared for it. Only two weeks away, and from what I read in your article, Don, I doubt I'd be up to par with everyone else.

I'm not sure what I'll do now, I'll have to mull it over.

In the meantime, what are some good books to read to get me started?
I saw one that Don mentioned in his article. Any other good books?
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venom77

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Post Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:29 pm

Re: Are the classes worth it?

Well,

If you're looking specifically to study for the CEH, you can't go wrong with getting the official courseware. In addition to that, pick up both the older CEH Review Guide (ExamPrep - Michael Gregg) and the new v5 Review Guide (Official - Kimberly Graves). Reading through that should prepare you very well for the exam.

If you're looking for some good general reading, have a look at Counter Hack Reloaded. I enjoyed it very much :) I've also heard Gray Hat Hacking is a good book as well (haven't read it and it's a little older, but many people have said great things about it).

Bill
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bobismighty

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Post Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:39 pm

Re: Are the classes worth it?

Thanks a ton, Bill, I will definitely snag that book.

I have a few more quick questions that you may be able to help me with(not that you haven't helped enough already).

From your experience with these classes, should you already know a bulk of the material beforehand? Let me rephrase that, I know you need to already be familiar with it, but should I go into it expecting to learn more, or just to review? And did your class have a lot of lab exercises and simulated hacking?

I'd really like to go to ChicagoCon, but I'm almost positive that I'm not prepared for it. I have a basic understanding of pentesting, but not enough to compete with most of the other student, I'm sure.



One more thing, what are some other good certs to get for getting into Security? New Horizons was trying to get me to do the MCSE with Security Emphasis, but it didn't really sound necessary to me.

Thanksss :)
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don

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Post Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:55 pm

Re: Are the classes worth it?

Let us know a little bit more about your current experience and level of knowledge, and I'm sure we can answer your questions much better.

That being said, if you keep in mind that the focus of a boot camp is to prepare you for the exam, I think that will make your expectations come down quite a bit. If you were thinking of taking the Expert Pen Testing course with Jack Koziol, then we'd have to really sit down and go over your resume. But for CEH, you may be OK.

I've been know to say that certifications are a baseline of knowledge and by no means an indication of expert status. If you have a decent foundation in networking and security, the CEH should be no problem. If you want to be an expert, take the cert to get your foot in the door and then work in the field for a while. That's how you get to "KNOW" it the way you want.

As for MCSE: Security, it is a good credential to have if you're in a MS shop. To get there it will take 3 weeks of boot camps and 8 exams.

Don
CISSP, MCSE, CSTA, Security+ SME
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venom77

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Post Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:03 pm

Re: Are the classes worth it?

No problem.

No, I don't believe that you need to necessarily know a bulk amount of the material prior to attending the class. With your current background, I think you'd do fine. I would highly suggest picking up and reading through a Security+ book though if you're not comfortable with basic security concepts. Being that you already have the Network+ and your CCNA, I think you're good on the networking and tcp/ip end of things.

My class followed the lab book exactly. Some of the labs are alright, some are useless. I had the courseware prior to the class and I had already completed all the labs. So every time our instructor took an hour off for the class to do the labs, I was not too happy. The instructor provided no additional labs for the class.

I strongly feel that the course heavily depends on the instructor. For my ECSA/LPT course, our instructor was Larry Detar. He was incredible and I learned more in the 1.25 days we had with him than I did in the 5 days I had with my NH CEH instructor.

As long as you know your security concepts and have an understanding of hacking/pen-testing, you should be able to handle the CEH course. I wouldn't recommend it to someone just starting out in computers completely, but you already have a networking background. As long as you're willing to put forth the effort and study hard, you'll do fine. Again, those two review guides will help out greatly too.

As for other certs, I don't think you can go wrong with the Security+. Then it's pretty much up to you where you want to go from there. I'm actually working on MCSE:Security now, but I bought all the books rather than taking a class.

Bill
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bobismighty

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Post Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:21 pm

Re: Are the classes worth it?

Well, I was writing another post and Bill beat me to it! Below the dotted line is my post in response to Don on my experience.

Again, thanks a lot Bill and Don, I appreciate the input, it's really helping me get a better understanding of what I'm in for.

I guess I'll pick up a few books to get a head-start and see what happens.
I'd think I'd really enjoy ChicagoCon, but it may be a little too rushed for me.


-----------------



Well, my current experience, hmm. With security I have no professional experience, only what I've learned and tested on my own.
My recent tinkering with security has been limited to simple things such as ARP poisoning, MITM attacks, sniffing, wireless hacking/AP phishing, some pentesting with metasploit, and few other things. All this has been on my own network, mind you, not on others. I've been using programs like nmap, hping, airsnarf, wireshark, ettercap, metasploit, arpspoof, etc.

My level of knowledge in security is fair. I have a pretty good understanding of how many concepts work, just not how to implement them. And my understanding of networking is pretty solid.

The only professional experience I have deals with networking(maintaining, configuring, installing....small to medium size), pc repair, and desktop support related stuff.

I don't know if that's what you were looking for, but hopefully I've at least cleared it up a little.
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hitechpo

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Post Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:50 am

Re: Are the classes worth it?

I recently passed the CEHv5 exam.  I studied using the CBT training from online.quickert.com.  (I found out that the courseware was the same material that New Horizon used (sold) in my area, but the course they offered was at a fraction of the cost of New Horizons.)  I went through the entire program and concentrated on using their tools through their labs and also through a test network I set up at home.  A few weeks before the exam, I purchased Michael Greggs' Exam Cram prep book to help me review.

I had some prior experience with some of the tools and I was heavy into Information Security.  I thought it was a difficult test and there were some questions that I hadn't seen before, either in the CBT training or in the review.

I felt CEH was a worthwhiled cert to pursue and I enjoyed learning the material.  It definitely makes me want to learn more and pursue EC-Councils other courses (i.e. CHFI and ECSA/LPT).

Good Luck.
CISSP, CEH, NSA-IAM/NSA-IEM, MCSE, A+
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JeffCT

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Post Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:47 pm

Re: Are the classes worth it?

I took Vigilar's professional hacking class and I think it was worth it. Mainly because I learned 10x more through the class than what I would've learned self studying the CEH curriculum. Vigilar uses their own material, mainly because the actual CEH material is abysmal. You take the CEH at the end of the week, and at that point it's easy because they teach you in more depth...
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Bascom Bridge

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Post Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:14 am

Re: Are the classes worth it?

CEH pre req is MCSE or CCNA knowledge.

YES only authorised classes are worth it. As they provide official courseware, CDs, Participation certificate from EC Council and exam voucher.

Again studing with offical partener center adds more cridet to you CV

Bascom Bridge is ATP.

for more information call 09376997676
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