InterN0T shut down by their hosting provider 1and1

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    • #7095
      MaXe
      Participant

      Dear EH-netters,

      During the last weekend (Saturday between 13:46 and 14:01), most of InterN0T was shut down by the security department at 1and1. (The hosting provider.)

      The only thing the technical support could say at that time, was that the accounts were suspended due to a “security issue”. The security department, didn’t open until Monday 09:00am EST of course.

      At Monday the 28th of November 2011, the security department at 1and1 informed me, that the account had been terminated and that I was no longer a customer at 1and1.

      The reason for doing this, was because we hosted content that could be used to “hack”. Immediately I responded with that it was for ethical purposes only, but that didn’t matter as all kinds of “hacking”, are bad according to 1and1, especially their security department which you can reach at: +1 877 206 4253, in case you want discuss ethical hacking and penetration testing with them.

      After requesting a backup of all my files, the response was: “Sir, your account has been terminated.” (Which the agent or whatever I talked to, kept repeating.)

      According to their Terms and Conditions, any kind of content 1and1 doesn’t find appropriate (especially hacking), can result in any customer’s account being immediately terminated without warning. This includes deleting a domain you legally own, all your e-mail accounts, all files, databases, everything.

      Some of you trying to reach intern0t.net will be redirected to: intern0t.blogspot.com

      As this is the current place for updates concerning the website.

      For your information, I’ve been hosting content that could be used to “hack”, on their servers for 5 years, without any problems whatsoever.

      Best regards,
      MaXe

    • #44085
      tturner
      Participant

      Have you reviewed their ToS to see if you can build a case against them? This is pretty horrendous and I’m sorry you are having to deal with this. They are essentially holding your intellectual property hostage and I would think you could have grounds for legal action but IANAL…

      Did you have backups?

    • #44086
      Triban
      Participant

      I’ve dealt with 1and1 in the past for clients and they are not my favorite hosting provider.  I use Dreamhost and have never had a problem.  I give them money they give me oodles of space and services.  Frankly I say give them bad press, but yeah review that ToS.  If anything they should reinstate your domain and allow you to transfer your files off and transfer the DNS records to a host that is a bit more open.  I think it is just some paranoia on their part.  I sense some dark times coming if Judges are taking down sites and companies are taking it upon themselves to band content of paying customers.

    • #44087
      KrisTeason
      Participant

      MaXe – this is sad news. I was a member of your site. Though I haven’t been active in the past few months, we spoke not long ago and I know you were getting new themes up for it and everything. Very sad to hear they would do this.

      Fullt agree with turner and 3xban here. I hope you have backups. Intern0t had great material.

    • #44088
      Don Donzal
      Keymaster

      Was this a dedicated server or shared hosting?

      Don

    • #44089
      MaXe
      Participant

      @don wrote:

      Was this a dedicated server or shared hosting?

      Don

      Some of it was shared, and another part was on a non-shared VPS. Keep in mind they also deleted the domain name from their nameservers and everything else in my account. (I can’t even access the account, as it basically “doesn’t exist”.)

      The domain should still legally be my property, even though I have no control over it.

      @xXxKrisxXx wrote:

      MaXe – this is sad news. I was a member of your site. Though I haven’t been active in the past few months, we spoke not long ago and I know you were getting new themes up for it and everything. Very sad to hear they would do this.

      Fullt agree with turner and 3xban here. I hope you have backups. Intern0t had great material.

      Indeed, and I remember we spoke as we occasionally do  🙂 About the theme, yes that was implemented not long ago and I had even made some custom fixes, etc. I do have backups, but the database is a bit outdated afaik.

      The main problem is not backups, but the domain, and a few other things  🙂

      @3xban wrote:

      I’ve dealt with 1and1 in the past for clients and they are not my favorite hosting provider.  I use Dreamhost and have never had a problem.  I give them money they give me oodles of space and services.  Frankly I say give them bad press, but yeah review that ToS.  If anything they should reinstate your domain and allow you to transfer your files off and transfer the DNS records to a host that is a bit more open.  I think it is just some paranoia on their part.  I sense some dark times coming if Judges are taking down sites and companies are taking it upon themselves to band content of paying customers.

      I’ve reviewed their ToS and if they don’t like the content on a particular website, then they are more than free to shut it down without any warning. See 8.6, 8.8 and 8.13 as guidelines that are vague, but describes somewhat that they can do whatever they want.

      You’re right about the paranoia, it’s because of all the people abusing their skills that we, the legit and ethical hackers gets a bad name.

      I also think that they should at least, reinstate the domain and allow me to transfer it, including the files I had stored, at least one single database, and a few other minor things.

      @tturner wrote:

      Have you reviewed their ToS to see if you can build a case against them? This is pretty horrendous and I’m sorry you are having to deal with this. They are essentially holding your intellectual property hostage and I would think you could have grounds for legal action but IANAL…

      Did you have backups?

      I’ve reviewed it and a few other friends have too, their ToS is a bit vague, meaning they’ve basically defined they can do whatever they want to without any warning. It really is horrible, I hope they will one day open their eyes to what Ethical Hacking and Penetration Testing is, or at least just give people a warning to remove inappropriate material or a warning before they terminate your account.

      You’re right that they’re holding my intellectual property hostage (esp. the domain), but there isn’t much I can do, except the domain which I may have a decent chance with.

    • #44090
      alucian
      Participant

      I really am sorry for you.
      I can only imagine how much passion and effort is necessary to produce and administer a site like yours or EHNet.

      In my personal opinion they are a bunch of idiots and ignorants. They are the kind of security specialists we are trying not to become.

      I hope that you’ll pass this moment and you’ll create a better one.

    • #44091
      BillV
      Participant

      Hmm, that’s odd considering EH-Net is hosted with 1&1 isn’t it Don?

    • #44092
      Don Donzal
      Keymaster

      Yep, we’re on 1and1. That’s why I asked. We have a dedicated server where this is the only site on the entire server. If it’s a shared plan of any sort, then they may have legitimate worry that it could affect other sites. But it does sound like they killed it just because they didn’t like the content, not that they were concerned for other customers. So I’m forced to go look at my agreement with them as well.

      Don

    • #44093
      Gromic
      Participant

      Wow, that’s new.  Though, I cannot imagine form a legal point of view that they are allowed to delete your domain since it is definately not their property.

      I had a talk the other day with the customer support of another hoster concerning the termination of a dedicated server and I asked them what will happen to my registered domain – I wanted it moved to another webspace within the same hoster.  He said, that they cannot just “delete or move” my domain(even within the same hoster) since they need my written approval (or something similar).  I mean sure 1&1could forge a termination “in your name” at the IANA … but then I guess you could write the them to complain.

      On the other hand… as hard as it is… they are not forced to host your content… As you have already mentioned … every hoster has their “get rid of anybody” clauses… especially like don also wrote:

      @don wrote:

      …If it’s a shared plan of any sort, then they may have legitimate worry that it could affect other sites….

      so here I see no chance…

      I am sorry for you.  Hope at least it works out for your domain.
      Now I am glad I didn’t go to 1&1 when I bought a new hosting package last week  🙂

    • #44094
      group51
      Participant

      I run an ethical hacking website who is hosted with 1&1.  Since one of my members pointed out what happened with intern0t, I could not imagine just losing everything – not just the website but resources tied to it.  So I called 1and1 and asked them to review my site so that I can at least have some opportunity to discuss the issue.  I called the general help desk who in turn gave me a separate number to their security department. There was no waiting and reached a direct person.  While he seemed on the ball he couldn’t answer my question and said he would have someone look at my website.  I asked 5 times for someone to call me back to discuss and not to email.  Well they emailed me.  Their email to me is as follows.  For the record, I HATE 1and1 for the last 3 years and I am in the process of moving to another host.


      Subject: C253550640  – 1&1 Internet Compliance

      Dear



      , (Customer ID: xxxxxxxxx)

      Hi, you called asking if group51.org violates any terms and condtions.  As long
      as a customer site does not violate our terms and conditions regarding adult
      content, the abuse department does not care what the content of the site is.
      Even if it is a hacker forum, it’s not going to matter to us, as long as you are
      not hacking with our equipment.  You can say what you want, publish what you
      want, and do what you will with your own computer, but you may not use any of
      our equipment for hacking.  If we discover you doing this, it can lead to the
      locking and/or termination of your account.


      Sincerely,
      Security Team
      1&1 Internet, Inc.

    • #44095
      BillV
      Participant

      I don’t know how much space or resources are needed (for either of you) but I’m pretty happy with my $5/mo ($51/year) VPS from VPSCOLO (link).

      Their support is good (though with your own VPS you kind of are the support) and they are pretty flexible with what you can do. I even came out and told them I needed to do some security testing from my box and they had no problem with it.

      I use GoDaddy for my other hosting needs (been there for years and don’t really have any complaints).

      GoDaddy ToS:

      You will not use this Site or the Services found at this Site in a manner (as determined by Go Daddy in its sole and absolute discretion) that:

      • Promotes, encourages or engages in any spam or other unsolicited bulk email, or computer or network hacking or cracking;

      I don’t know if talking about such subjects means ‘promoting or encouraging.’

    • #44096
      group51
      Participant

      Thanks for the tip BillV.  I spent my last Saturday morning reading ToS’s for a handful of different companies which included a phone call. (where those companies answered their phone).  I also read reviews online and GoDaddy didn’t rank high. Other companies flat out said “we don’t want ethical hacking content” and refused service. I suspect that’s first line support assumptions in some cases.  The best luck I had in both speaking with someone, understanding the ToS, good shared QoS (1and1 servers are heavily taxed)… I ended up choosing Network Solutions. This is not meant to be an advertisement – just explaining my (re)action to the news while I try to run a non-profit group. I feel for Max and would encourage him to check them out.  Yes it’s more expensive but in the end, they have been around for 30 years and seem to be more tolerant of this stuff.  With all the laws changing or being created, I think our days are numbered anyhow.

      It may be that ethicalhacker.net is hosted on 1&1 but the very fact that they have the capacity to do what they did to Max, it’s like a ticking time bomb and a risk I’m not willing to take for my site. 

    • #44097
      group51
      Participant

      Update:

      The following takes place between my pro-active phone call to the 1and1 “abuse” team to ensure they don’t close my account and the email I got today:

      From 1and1:
      Your contract number:  XXXXXXXX
      Your customer ID:  XXXXXXXXX
      Our reference:  [Ticket XXXXXXXXXX]
      Note:  Your personal 1&1 contract number and your name certify that this e-mail
      was sent by 1&1 Internet Inc.

      Dear Mr. xxxxxxx,

      This is an urgent notice regarding the security of your 1&1 account.

      Your 1&1 webspace has been attacked via an insecure software you installed on your webspace.

      You will find an analysis of the attack and instructions on how to secure your webspace against future attacks in this e-mail.

      In order to impede further attacks, we have disabled these files. Please
      note that part of your websites may be impaired.



      This was bogus.  I have other accounts running similar software with no warning.  This was targeted.  I lost admin access to all my client websites – 1and1 disabled the joomla admin files.  I called them tonight and the abuse team is closed until Monday.

      On a side note, I’m having extreme difficulty trying to transfer my ethical hacking site http://group51.org domain name to a new provider.  This is my second round – “Pending Registry Approval”.  1and1 systems are denying my domain transfer even though I provided the auth code and followed all the security steps. 

      My 2012 mission is to get off of 1and1 servers.

    • #44098
      BillV
      Participant
    • #44099
      rattis
      Participant

      What I found most interesting about the SANS post, were the following:

      The abuse department’s  final email they posted showing clearly that they don’t know who SANS is.

      The fact that they didn’t like the answer they were given.

      And lastly that the person writing said email feels empowered enough to lock the account for the rest of the contract, insinuating that SANS would have to pay for service they were prevented from using.

    • #44100
      group51
      Participant

      I’m speechless.  I’m numb.  I have so much damn work to do because of this company.  Sometimes I feel like we can never win this battle.  It’s looking more and more that what happened to MaxE, will happen to me in a slow death sort of way. 

    • #44101
      Anonymous
      Participant

      My site is with 1and1 and it contains links to sites and video showing how to hack wep no tools as such but links to lots of things. I never had any problem with them but some of the staff don’t really have a clue. I think what they have done to  MaXe is wrong I don’t know what contents were on his site but I think they should have least sent you email saying you site violates there TOS. They then could have then given you a day to fix this issue or your account would be removed.

      I also understand from 1and1 point of view that some sites should be removed straight away depending on the contents. For example if you was hosting certain types of porn then sure they should remove you account and I think we would all agree with this.

      It just seems like they don’t really have a good enough reason or they do and wont tell you I think you will never know why they removed your account what sucks big time. but i wish the best of luck sorting it all out.

    • #44102
      rattis
      Participant

      @Jamie.R wrote:

      I also understand from 1and1 point of view that some sites should be removed straight away depending on the contents. For example if you was hosting certain types of porn then sure they should remove you account and I think we would all agree with this.

      I don’t think I can agree with that. It’s a straw man argument. The main thing is they’re taking people’s money as long as they are following the rules but changing those rules wihtout telling people.

      The porn example is already covered by the TOS. but the hacking sites aren’t. Yet they’re turning around and shutting down accounts anyway.

    • #44103
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @chrisj wrote:

      @Jamie.R wrote:

      I also understand from 1and1 point of view that some sites should be removed straight away depending on the contents. For example if you was hosting certain types of porn then sure they should remove you account and I think we would all agree with this.

      I don’t think I can agree with that. It’s a straw man argument. The main thing is they’re taking people’s money as long as they are following the rules but changing those rules wihtout telling people.

      The porn example is already covered by the TOS. but the hacking sites aren’t. Yet they’re turning around and shutting down accounts anyway.

      Don’t get me wrong chrisj I don’t think they should be able to change the rules. The point I was trying to get across was if someone for example was hosting a website that had porn on it and the people were not of legal age. Then this sort site should be shut down stright away. However in the case of hacking website I agree with everyone else here they should have NOT removed the account. But as I have said something does not sounds right and I don’t think we will ever know why it was removed. Also as mention in the post lots us have hacking related material on 1and1 and have not been removed.

    • #44104
      group51
      Participant

      Also as mention in the post lots us have hacking related material on 1and1 and have not been removed.

      Yet.

      Perhaps I made the mistake of calling 1and1 to verify if what I’m doing could have my account closed.  Since my phone call, they have been making my life a living nightmare.  They are playing really dirty right now.  Like in the case above, blocking my admin areas to all my websites on a Friday just before their abuse team closes for the weekend.  Other things are happening as well where I suspect they want me to leave as a customer which is exactly what I’m trying to do. 

      Closing websites down due to illegal content shouldn’t be an issue and I also agree with the comments above.  However at the heart of all this is their misguided interpretation of the law and perhaps even their own policies that are blindly enforced by script reading employees that probably have no idea what ethical hacking is.  In contrast though, “abuse” teams and policy enforcement should allow for customer communication to verify if the violation was intended. eg. sites compromised. 

      At the end of the day, I am learning a hard lesson that you get what you pay for.  If you want the ability to be able to communicate intelligently with competent staff that hosts your online content and a healthy chunk of your online identity, you need to choose companies that charge a little more.

    • #44105
      rattis
      Participant

      @Jamie.R wrote:

      Don’t get me wrong chrisj I don’t think they should be able to change the rules. The point I was trying to get across was if someone for example was hosting a website that had porn on it and the people were not of legal age. Then this sort site should be shut down stright away. However in the case of hacking website I agree with everyone else here they should have NOT removed the account. But as I have said something does not sounds right and I don’t think we will ever know why it was removed. Also as mention in the post lots us have hacking related material on 1and1 and have not been removed.

      But that’s the thing. Porn is already against their ToS, So it doesn’t really matter anyway.

      What we’re talking about are things not stated in the ToS (hacking sites) and being told are ok by phone reps, then having them shut down anyway.

    • #44106
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I know porn is in the TOS I was just saying I understand why 1and1 need such rules.

      But I agree with anyone comments that the TOS should be more clean about other material and they should not be aloud to change it as and when they like.

    • #44107
      MaXe
      Participant

      @alucian wrote:

      I really am sorry for you.
      I can only imagine how much passion and effort is necessary to produce and administer a site like yours or EHNet.
      In my personal opinion they are a bunch of idiots and ignorants. They are the kind of security specialists we are trying not to become.
      I hope that you’ll pass this moment and you’ll create a better one.

      It has been hard so far, but it seems things are getting better, thanks!  ;D

      @don wrote:

      Yep, we’re on 1and1. That’s why I asked. We have a dedicated server where this is the only site on the entire server…

      That sounds crazy, esp. taking the risk into consideration. But I hope you won’t have any problems with 1and1 in case you’re still hosted at them.  🙂

      @gromic wrote:

      Wow, that’s new.  Though, I cannot imagine form a legal point of view that they are allowed to delete your domain since it is definately not their property.

      I had a talk the other day with the customer support of another hoster concerning the termination of a dedicated server and I asked them what will happen to my registered domain…

      Now I am glad I didn’t go to 1&1 when I bought a new hosting package last week  🙂

      Indeed, and they do state they can terminate anyone without notice. It’s kind of “scary” they don’t even give their customers a notice period, at least a day or three, after all, I was a customer for around 5 years.

      @group51 wrote:

      I run an ethical hacking website who is hosted with 1&1.  Since one of my members pointed out what happened with intern0t, I could not imagine just losing everything

      I think it’s sick how they can just pick out which sites they don’t want to host or not, where in this case they’re all related to hacking.

      @BillV wrote:

      I don’t know how much space or resources are needed (for either of you) but I’m pretty happy with my $5/mo ($51/year) VPS from VPSCOLO (link). …

      Yeah I read through like 10-15 hosting provider ToS ~1½ week ago and found out most of them didn’t want any content related to hacking at all. Thanks for the link btw 😉 Good prices too  ;D[/quote]

      @group51 wrote:

      Thanks for the tip BillV.  I spent my last Saturday morning reading ToS’s for a handful of different companies which included a phone call. …. they have the capacity to do what they did to Max, it’s like a ticking time bomb and a risk I’m not willing to take for my site. 

      I did the same thing, and found most of the same results. It’s actually amazing how many bans all types of contents related to hacking, because they think it’s “omg illegal” while it is often not illegal to speak about in theory, etc. Would be fun to make a forum addon that adds “hypothetically speaking: ” to all threads  😀

      Anyway, I checked out network solutions and also saw they were an old stable hosting company, however I’ve already found another that is also not so offensive against hacking content. (Only if the server(s) are used for hacking.)

      @group51 wrote:

      Update:

      The following takes place between my pro-active phone call to the 1and1 “abuse” team to ensure they don’t close my account and the email I got….
      My 2012 mission is to get off of 1and1 servers.

      It sounds crazy, did you resolve the issue or are there still issues with 1and1? I hope you’ve taken backup if possible and that you’ll move asap. Well, that is what I’d do to a hosting company where you’re sure they don’t mind hacking related content.

      @BillV wrote:

      Just some quick searching turns up all sorts of negative information about 1&1…

      http://isc.sans.edu/diary.html?storyid=11338

      The SANS entry isn’t really negative but shows they selectively choose what to block

      I was surprised by the SANS entry as well, in fact I wondered if it was (sorry for my word of choice) monkies working at 1and1. It seems like a manager went ballistic on the agent handling the case, hence the reason the agent told SANS to immediately remove the file.

      @chrisj wrote:

      What I found most interesting about the SANS post, were the following:

      The abuse department’s  final email they posted showing clearly that they don’t know who SANS is.

      The fact that they didn’t like the answer they were given.

      And lastly that the person writing said email feels empowered enough to lock the account for the rest of the contract, insinuating that SANS would have to pay for service they were prevented from using.

      That also shocked me a bit, that they really didn’t know who SANS was / is. It’s like saying who’s Microsoft lol.

      @Jamie.R wrote:

      My site is with 1and1 and it contains links to sites and video showing how to hack wep no tools as such but links to lots of things. I never had any problem with them but some of the staff don’t really have a clue. I think what they have done to  MaXe is wrong I don’t know what contents were on his site but I think they should have least sent you email saying you site violates there TOS. They then could have then given you a day to fix this issue or your account would be removed.

      Thanks. The kind of content, was hacking related. Anything from advisories, to poc’s, tools, program code, video guides, challenges, papers, almost anything except topics such as “CC’s” and “DB Dumps” etc. There was a few other things that also were “banned content” on the site, that are typically found on other sites, but that was not on intern0t afaik.

      @group51 wrote:

      Also as mention in the post lots us have hacking related material on 1and1 and have not been removed.

      Yet.

      Perhaps I made the mistake of calling 1and1 to verify if what I’m doing could have my account closed.  Since my phone call, they have been making my life a living nightmare.  They are playing really dirty right now.  Like in the case above, blocking my admin areas to all my websites on a Friday just before their abuse team closes for the weekend.  Other things are happening as well where I suspect they want me to leave as a customer which is exactly what I’m trying to do. 

      Closing websites down due to illegal content shouldn’t be an issue and I also agree with the comments above.  However at the heart of all this is their misguided interpretation of the law and perhaps even their own policies that are blindly enforced by script reading employees that probably have no idea what ethical hacking is.  In contrast though, “abuse” teams and policy enforcement should allow for customer communication to verify if the violation was intended. eg. sites compromised.  …

      I think it’s horrible, especially that they first block access to the admin areas, and THEN suspend _everything_ so it’s impossible to even get backups of your files and databases.

      It is most likely also a misinterpretation of the law, as there’s thankfully no law yet afaik that says you can’t talk about hacking. After all, that would be a breach of the freedom of speech. Hacking in its highest form is not just about attacking machines, it’s about taking things appart to see how they work, either by reverse engineering / fuzzing / testing the application or reviewing the source code, and then perhaps finding a bug that leads to a security issue, and then fixing it unless the info is just sent to the developers. That, is also just a small part of hacking as there’s so many types of hacking. In fact one of the oldest meanings, was  for a person who was good at craftsman work with wooden objects. As he would “hack them” too. Of course, that has nothing to do with computers.

      Some of the best hacks I see, are made within open source. “Hacks”, that makes our life better. These are also hacks, and I’m not talking about attacking a program, service, computer, or a device, but actually improving it.

      I think 1and1 should educate themselves on the topic of hacking and realise it’s soon year 2012 and now year 1999 we’re living in.

      Anyway, it seems like things are slowly working out except for the domain which they are still holding hostage. It’s just such a long process of filing a complaint to ICANN as 1and1 hasn’t responded yet.

    • #44108
      j0rDy
      Participant

      wow, what a bummer (to say the least). just some advice: do not try to win the battle on the “my site is 100% ethical” discussion, just do whatever it takes to get a decent backup and move your site/documents/etc to another hosting…good luck on this one! and remember, EH.net got your back 😉

    • #44109
      MaXe
      Participant

      Indeed it was j0rDy and yes, I’ve given up on the discussion about the “ethicality” of the site as I’m sure they could pick things out of context. Anyway, work is going slow but steady, so eventually, intern0t will get back  🙂 Thanks hehe

    • #44110
      Ignatius
      Participant

      I realise that this situation is well-known here and many have expressed concern about what has happened but I wonder if this situation should be published more widely in the infosec community.  We all know what happened between Peter and Infosec Institute and that seems to have been resolved to everyone’s satisfaction.

      I would have thought that publishing information about MaXe’s experience as widely as possible, providing it is correct factually and doesn’t stray into the realm of defamation etc. (I have no reason to believe that it would), wouldn’t do any harm.

      Having seen the comments here about MaXe’s former host, I would avoid them even though I note that others’ experiences are more favourable.

    • #44111
      dynamik
      Participant

      @Ignatius wrote:

      Having seen the comments here about MaXe’s former host, I would avoid them even though I note that others’ experiences are more favourable.

      The thing is, MaXe’s experience was probably also favorable until this happened. Knowing that your provider can (and will) flip the kill switch on a whim should be concerning to everyone that uses them. It would be an entirely different story if they called him, provided his data and DNS changes in a reasonable period of time, etc., but this is customer service at its worst.

    • #44112
      Ignatius
      Participant

      @dynamik wrote:

      The thing is, MaXe’s experience was probably also favorable until this happened.

      Exactly, hence the suggestion that this situation is publicised widely, just as Peter decided to make his ongoing situation with Infosec Institute widely known a few months ago.  Obviously, it’s up to individuals here on EH.net who use 1and1 to decide whether they plan to continue using them with the possibility that they might pull the plug without any notice.

    • #44113
      MaXe
      Participant

      If you search for “1and1 shut” on Google, two keywords, you’ll see this post which is quite good. http://goo.gl/4yJyr

      Furthermore, a few has already moved away from 1and1 after they heard this “horror story”.

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