Thomas Wilhelm - ISSUES WITH HACKING DOJO (SOLVED)

[esojzuir]

I paid $1,500.00 to hacking dojo for a lifetime access two months ago. I received access to the wiki 1 week later but no lab access. Since then I've emailed Tom once every week, sent him PM's on this forum, sent him twitter, and skype messages. You name it I've done it. As of today I can't access the lab I paid for two months ago.

I have to honestly say that I had my reservations to joining the dojo mainly for the bad press he recieves regarding his customer service here on EH. But sometimes you just decide to trust that it will not happen to you. Well... I was wrong, and I should have paid more attention to the posts on this forum. I made the decision based on his pentesting book (excellent) but it has been a real pain to get a hold of him.

I did not wanted to be one more disapointed customer but I came to the conclusion that he has the worst customer service of any security education provider I've encountered. In my opinion: you don't sustain a business like this on reputation alone. You can be as good as Mutts, Darkoperator, Mubix, Dijininga etc... but if you just plainly don't care about your customers, get their money and then ignore them it's the most disrespectful thing you can do, and the worst thing for your business. Word of mouth is the key, and if all people have to say is "great instructor, great material, but once he gets his money good luck getting him to answer a question or setup a lab" eventually your business will fail.

This is just one sample (If you search through the forum you find many more):

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prats84

Re: My Experience With Hackingdojo Ripped Off My Money
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2012, 07:59:05 AM »

Leaving the Yet issue of refund at a debate.
I am not debating wether the money should be a refund or not but what Yet is trying to say is the way HackingDojo deals with this kind of situations is not correct.

What about my issue?
I didnt even get to start the course. I waited for course confirmation details and nothing came. All the refund emails were ignored.

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I think that if he really is as busy as he claims to be he should hire someone to take care of that part of the business, otherwise he will loose all credibility. I'm sure he will probably read this, so If you do I'm asking you the same thing for the 1,000th time:

CAN I GET MY LAB ACCOUNT SET UP AND THE INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO ACCESS IT??? I'M SURE IT ONLY TAKES 15-20 MINUTES MAX... SO DO IT ALREADY.... I HAVE 1,500 REASONS TO ASK YOU FOR THAT!!!

[azmatt]

Not a good month on here for the dojo....

$1,500 is a lot of money so I hope your situation gets resolved ASAP.

[ajohnson]

Tom had mentioned he was undergoing/recovering from surgery, so there may be extenuating circumstances that are more complex than "he took my money and won't respond." It looks like the HackingDojo Twitter account hasn't posted since the end of August, so something certainly seems to be amiss. Granted, while that doesn't make your situation any better, I think it's important to keep perspective.

Also, I think it's unfair to say there are many other threads like this. I occasionally see someone say he can be slow to respond to email or something along those lines, but aside from the recent drama thread, I can't recall seeing any other major dissatisfaction.

Your situation is also significantly different than the other issue since you never received any of the materials or access. If you can't get a response, I don't know what other options you have besides working with your credit card company or PayPal on obtaining a refund/charge back. I'm sure it's just unfortunate circumstances, but no one wants to have that amount of money tied up with nothing to show for it.

[esojzuir]

@ajohnson:

I'm well aware of his health issues as I even mentioned on an email I sent to him and on a PM here on EH. If you look you will find a thread here of him mentioning bitcoins for his site just a week ago. I replied to this thread on the same day asking him about my situation, he never replied. That's strange, you have time to post on EH but not to fix a client's situation???

Also I've done a bit of research here and there are posts stating clearly that is customary of him to ignore people. I'm keeping perspective on his situation but how hard it is if you're at home to set up an account? Like I mentioned it takes the same amount of effort to post on EH a week ago than to solve his business issues. I already posted a complaint on Google and if on Monday he doesn't reply I will proceed to put a complaint with all the email evidence I have on my bank to get the charged reversed. I'm also considering attrition as this is not the first time he has ignored people and it's unfair to all his customers and future customers. A business needs to be run in a professional way at all times. That's why I suggested  he should hire an assistant

As far as I know he lost all credibility to me and many others on this forum. You just have to dig a little to find that my comments are true. Take care and thanks for replying

[cd1zz]

This is BS and I'm calling it out. There have been many posts lately of vendors not delivering after people have "won" things from this site.

If you're running a small business and you get legitimately sick, people will understand and normal people be compassionate of the situation. If you're capable of posting marketing materials and updates to your course but still have customers who are missing materials, that's complete bullshit.  If you're still accepting money and not delivering what you promise, that's unethical and potentially criminal. This is the "ethical hacker network", right?

There are a lot of people that front their own money (and a lot of it) for training and when that is abused for some cheap publicity on this website, that simply wrong. @esojzuir If you have tried to resolve this issue in a reasonable manner, have it all documented and he's still not responding, I would pursue other more aggressive actions.

I had a similar situation with Mile2 when I "won" something from this site. It ended up being a complete waste of time and not what was promised in my "winnings." It's a shame this is happening more and more on this site because every time it happens its impacts the EH.net reputation. "Oh, that's the site where vendors promise stuff but the participants never get what they were promised."

(CASP, MILE2, Hacking Dojo... are a few) I'm sure there are more but that's what is coming to mind right now.

I don't ever post on this site to win anything, I just try to give back but I can't imagine how pissed I would be if I spent my last dollars on something and it never came through. People are generally very polite here, but this is really a crock of shit. Give the guy his cash back or give him is damn materials. @esojzuir I would dump this vendor and go with someone that is tried/true/affordable/superbadass like offsec.

I highly encourage people to post their problems with vendors. It helps weed out the good from the bad and helps the community when dollars are tight and times are tough.

/end rant

[MaXe]

On a side-note, when I won a complete year of Hacking Dojo training, it took probably a month or so to set up, but I did receive it. Sometimes meetings were cancelled, but as I won it and it was free, I didn't really care (after all, most of the videos were on the wiki anyway, including connections details to the lab).

I understand that it's a problem you haven't heard anything esojzuir, and I hope you get your situation resolved and that Tom considers, hiring an assistant to deal with these matters, in case he or his assistant teacher should not be available. It may mean less money overall, but in the end it will mean a greater reputation for the company.

After all, companies like OffSec don't have these issues, and they are not that much bigger, but they are efficient at what they do, and I haven't seen them let anyone down.

Anyway, I hope Tom gets better soon in case he is still sick or suffering from a relapse (what could we possibly know about his situation), and that all this gets sorted out.

I am however, more surprised about what cd1zz called out, about vendors getting free advertisement on this site and then not delivering the prizes people have won. I have not had this issue yet, and I don't hope I experience it as it is unfair practice.

But I hope everyone's situation is resolved 

[esojzuir]

There are a lot of people that front their own money (and a lot of it) for training and when that is abused for some cheap publicity on this website, that simply wrong. @esojzuir If you have tried to resolve this issue in a reasonable manner, have it all documented and he's still not responding, I would pursue other more aggressive actions.

I don't ever post on this site to win anything, I just try to give back but I can't imagine how pissed I would be if I spent my last dollars on something and it never came through. People are generally very polite here, but this is really a crock of shit. Give the guy his cash back or give him is damn materials. @esojzuir I would dump this vendor and go with someone that is tried/true/affordable/superbadass like offsec.

I highly encourage people to post their problems with vendors. It helps weed out the good from the bad and helps the community when dollars are tight and times are tough.

/end rant

Yes, I have all email attempts from my part. He answered 1 time to set up the wiki access. Then nothing and I was left on the air with no lab access. I send him messages on the same tone I've been posting here. A simple request to get my lab access ready.

You are right in your comment. If you have time to post things to promote your site you should spend the same amount of time helping your customers. Man, I charged my card 1500 - that's 1/2 my monthly salary and for him to come up with this it's very frustrating and disrespectful.

Like you said yes people get sick, but enough is enough and when you find out that he is making changes to his site and posting them here to lure more people in while ignoring the ones that already paid him is unethical. Here is the link I mentioned. This was after the Yet incident where he claimed he was better. But still ignored me while having time to post this, fix his site and get more money out of people. Visit his site and check all the changes. He has time, and he's ok to help himself but not his customers??

http://www.ethicalhacker.net/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,54/topic,9511.msg53523/#msg53523

Thanks for your reply!

[esojzuir]

I took the time to email prats84 to see if his problem was solved: here is his reply:

From: "Pratik Mehta" <prats84@gmail.com>
To: "Jose Ruiz" <jose@joseruiz.net>


nope he hasnt mate.


On 18 November 2012 13:08, Jose Ruiz <jose@joseruiz.net> wrote:
Hi:

My name is Jose Ruiz. I am having a problem with Hacking Dojo that is very similar to yours. Two months and no lab access no matter how many emails I send. Did he solved the issue you posted on EH network? I



--
Pratik Mehta

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His original request:

prats84

Re: My Experience With Hackingdojo Ripped Off My Money
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2012, 07:59:05 AM »

Leaving the Yet issue of refund at a debate.
I am not debating wether the money should be a refund or not but what Yet is trying to say is the way HackingDojo deals with this kind of situations is not correct.

What about my issue?
I didnt even get to start the course. I waited for course confirmation details and nothing came. All the refund emails were ignored.

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One month later he has this fellow member of EH still waiting. What you guys think about this. If you check on Yet's posts Tom personally said to prats84 that he will PM him to solve the situation. He ignored him. I think this proves my point beyond doubt.

[impelse]

I am not sure if Thomas is getting the same problem for the small business. When they begin to grow you cannot keep managing the things like small way, it is necessary to change the methods so he can manage a growing market.

I hope he is changing the procedures otherwise it will kill the business, in internet reputation is gold.

[Dark_Knight]

................All seems to be working out..

[Grendel]

As was speculated, I had some additional health issues the last couple weeks that were left over from my hospital stay about 5 weeks ago (the peritonitis resulting from the perforated colon had caused me to become septic, and the initial antibiotics needed to be extended... But the good news is that helped and I did not have to return to the hospital for surgery. Unfortunately, that extended my overall recovery time, but at least now I have had a couple days of being pain free).

I currently have 387 emails to wade through, and will respond to them asap. Sorry for the delays.

[esojzuir]

I just received a PM from Tom, we are solving the situation...

[H1t M0nk3y]

@esojzuir

I am glad things are getting better for you. I understand your frustrations!! I also wanted to add that the fact you took the time to post all the steps you took before posting on this forum (timeline, messages sent, etc) made it clear that you were not just bashing a sick guy or something like that...

I ever find myself in a situation that I have paid $1500 and didn't get anything for it, it wouldn't make sense to hire lawyers to defend myself because I will end up spending way more thatn that in lawyer's fees!!

So I am with cd1zz, let's post about good but also bad training companies.

But that being said, I was happy to see that Tom replied to your post and fixed your problems. If this was only a one off, then I am sure people will quickly forget about this. I am sure Tom learned something about it...

So good luck with your training and please post your feedbacks later about your experience! 

[hayabusa]

... but at least now I have had a couple days of being pain free).

Glad to hear you're back on the road to recovery, Tom.

[esojzuir]

@H1t M0nk3y

Thanks for your reply! As you stated my intentions were never to bash a sick person. I knew he was sick and I'm human too so I can understand. A very simple way to put this is the following:

You get your PC to BestBuy to get it fixed. They receive it and tell you to come back in a week. You go back a week later and the store is closed. You call central offices, send emails the whole shabang and nobody shows up to answer your questions. You keep showing up to the store every week for almost 2 months and guess what - still closed.

Then the manager shows up and tells you that they were sick. Cool I can live with that but why didn't you tell me that so I can stop worrying? Ok, I know this is a bit extreme but everyone here gets my point. How you can solve this??? By having an assistant that can take care of other stuff - DELEGATE - that's the key word here. You can only run a one man show for a certain period of time, after that if the business and other obligations grow you can't, period. It's business 101

I got interested in the Dojo because of his book and DeICE cd's and all I have is praise for the book. But he needs to take care of this situation so his online courses don't get affected.

I'll keep posting updates about the login issues. Up to this point I recieved a message from him but still waiting for the official access instructions, so even though the communication opened again I still can't access the lab

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On a lighter note: My wife IS a lawyer!!!!!!!!