The Ethical Hacker Network - Learning and never enough time!

impelse

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Re: Learning and never enough time!

« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2010, 08:01:08 AM »

I bealived that after some time the knowledge is aceptable do manage some security fied (not all)


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Knb15

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Re: Learning and never enough time!

« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2010, 11:06:44 AM »

T-Bone, here are my two cents since i am another person on the same boat as you and many others.

I got in to the security field or interested in it only about 3 months ago. Since then, much like everyone who has posted in this thread, i have found that there is a multitude of information out there that can be overwhelming to say the least.

On one hand it is great that information is readily available for anyone that is willing to take the time to learn. On the other hand, it can easily overwhelm you at the same time.

So after reading the advice of many from this forum i decided to start slow by purchasing some beginner books about Ethical Hacking. Right now i have enough books to last me a good amount of time (about 4 books).

Along with reading the first book, i've been working on setting up my practice lab at home to be able to test what i learn in the books. So far i've got my host machine, 2 VMs (XP and Linux), and a laptop with Backtrack4 and Ubuntu. I've got more steps laid out of what i want to accomplish. Just the idea of having a lab can be too much, because it's hard to know where to begin, what to use, what to do. But i'm taking it one step at a time and think it will work out.

What Sil was talking about, in the field of psychology, is known as "Self fulfilling prophecy." There are many books on that, it is a known fact that it does affect your progress in what you do in life.

In closing, i would just like to say that while the field is huge and hard to get in to, having a community such as this where you can ask questions, and have SO MUCH information at your fingertips helps a great deal!

Btw, lack of time is also one of my top problems.

Knb15


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chrisj

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Re: Learning and never enough time!

« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2010, 12:10:50 PM »

There is more than enough time in the day. It's just how your day is structured. But I've been thinking I don't have enough time to study as well... Then I remembered other things I learned.

If you haven't, get and read Tom Limocelli's book on time management . It's written for computer people, and has really helped. Trick from this, schedule a set amount of time once a day to study or work on a personal project.

The other tick on finding time, comes from a book on language study (I used to study several foreign languages). Basically the idea is to find hidden moments. Time spent standing in line, sitting in a car waiting for someone, etc. Those times where you're twiddling your thumbs.

Make up flash cards, and pull them out while in line. If you have a book on a pda or smart phone (I'm a pda kind of guy) carry that and pull it out to read standing in line. You're not sitting down to hard study, it's about refresh and quick learn. I used to carry 2.5x3 cards (cut 3x5 in half) with 5 words in lang of choice on one side, and the English word on the back. Good way to go over review material too, as long as you don't need to take notes.

As for a 12 month course... Equix3n and I have been talking in email about training material. While not cheap, SANS 401, Professional Penetration Testing (Grendel's book), PWB / OSCP, and other SANS classes can easily take you past a year.

Me, I'm doing OSWP (wifu), sec+, LPI level 1, and CCNA withing the next 12 months.

As for money. Create a named savings account, and put 10.00 a check into it. Most of my money goes to debt (medical and irs back taxes), but I still manage $10.00 a check, I use it to buy books or pay for cert classes. Not quick, but it works.

Books, can be cheap. Buy used, go to the library, get a Safari account from O'Reilly.

just my take on your topic.


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sil

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Re: Learning and never enough time!

« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2010, 12:56:48 PM »

Quote from: chrisj on July 14, 2010, 12:10:50 PM

The other tick on finding time, comes from a book on language study (I used to study several foreign languages). Basically the idea is to find hidden moments. Time spent standing in line, sitting in a car waiting for someone, etc. Those times where you're twiddling your thumbs.

Make up flash cards, and pull them out while in line. If you have a book on a pda or smart phone (I'm a pda kind of guy) carry that and pull it out to read standing in line. You're not sitting down to hard study, it's about refresh and quick learn. I used to carry 2.5x3 cards (cut 3x5 in half) with 5 words in lang of choice on one side, and the English word on the back. Good way to go over review material too, as long as you don't need to take notes.

As for money. Create a named savings account, and put 10.00 a check into it. Most of my money goes to debt (medical and irs back taxes), but I still manage $10.00 a check, I use it to buy books or pay for cert classes. Not quick, but it works.

I'd like to expand a little on chrisj's post here. Any time can be study time in fact, all instances of anything you do can be used as a learning tool. I have an odd habit of creating analogies to explain technologies to those who don't understand a lot of things (networking, VoIP, security, etc.)

Index cards make a great way to remember what you've learned. From time to time I tinker with CCIE+S studies, during this time, I would almost always jot something down on some index card and keep it near me for enough time to be able to not only recall WHATEVER it was, but in order to understand it (OSPF, BGP, IS-IS, etc). What I would do for whatever it was I was trying to learn... Jot down the literal description, technical and logical explanation, then make my own analogy to remember it. Works wonders...

If you have a laptop or a desktop with a microphone, record yourself while you read certain content, then play it back while you drive to work. Reading aloud has been proven to work wonders. I believe in it and have so many CCIE audio cd's for just about every topic I could think of. Also, some content that is available for free online, you could record the audio and play it back while you drive. The retention starts sinking in. Now... The downside to this is, sometimes it can be confusing for hardcore technical stuff, because you will need to see the OUTPUT to understand it, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't take the approach of listening to content... Just don't do like I do and try to convert IPv6 numbers in your head while you drive. I've caught myself a little too sidetracked by audio from time to time.

Financially we all differ, however ask yourself what are you worth to yourself? Any dime you spend towards learning is for the betterment of yourself. Anything you learn is good learning, no matter WHAT it is you learn. Invest in yourself, whether it's time or financially and as time progresses you'll be richer either way (financially or mentally). Remember you only live once and there isn't anything you can't learn unless you cheat yourself and not try hard enough. Seriously... chrisj its interesting you mentioned languages... I can RWS: Spanish, Italian, Swedish fluently. I can understand about 70% of Russian including RWS. I can understand 40% of German (RWS) and some Greek... Languages are an interesting thing to learn because genetically, you would learn them like it or not (if you were born in China and your parents were American... Being over there, you'd obviously learn it)... I believe the same applies however, one has to be open-minded and set objectives and goals for themselves.


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ajohnson

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Re: Learning and never enough time!

« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2010, 01:42:49 PM »

I'm all about maximizing my study time. I love podcasts when in transit, exercising, and so on. http://www.getmon.com/ has a lot of security podcasts, and I use japanesepod101.com for my language studies (there are a lot of other 101s, so see if they have one for the language you're interested in).

I also have an account only for security news on twitter, and I can kill a few minutes waiting in line or wherever and catch up on those on my iPhone. The Anki flashcard utility is also gold, and I use that on my PCs and iPhone as well.

I definitely like the self-recorded note idea. I'll have to work that into the rotation. I'll also have to find some sexy-sounding chica to record them for my, so they'll be more interesting Wink


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T_Bone

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Re: Learning and never enough time!

« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2010, 11:13:22 AM »

@ SIL

Now i mean this with the greatest respect..... are you human??


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sil

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Re: Learning and never enough time!

« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2010, 01:08:01 PM »

*points finger @dynamik* <-- I ask the same about him. I honestly believe that veryone has the capacity to learn something it all boils down to the individual and how much effort they put into it. I've been at this for quite some time and I have dealt with security, engineering, design and administrator professionally since circa 1990. This began with AS/400 on up. I've spent more hours in the last week behind a computer than most normal people would spend in 2 months.

Think about that for a minute... I'm at work for about 9 hours or so. I get home and sometimes I fork off another 1 1/2 hours... I spend a lot of time doing a lot of different tasks. During the dotcom daze, the maximum amount of hours I did was 29 hours straight (right into Y2K). I've had a lot of time to learn a lot of cool things. This is the only difference, experience. I've been at security related things in technology long before there were positions like: "security analyst, security engineer". Heck, I was originally in the financial industry (Back then at Chemical Bank (pre Manufacturers Hanover)), security analyst to me then was someone analyzing stocks and bonds...

SO keep that in mind. Experience comes with time. There are programmers who'd mop up the floor with me yet I'd massacre them on networking, etc., does this mean I'm better, no. I might be better at one thing, and suck terribly in another. ASM ... Horrible! "Risk Management" horrible, not because I don't know it, I don't believe in the politricks behind it. I can argue risk metrics till the cows come home... I hate it. One of the big reasons I failed the CISM in the first place Wink


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T_Bone

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Re: Learning and never enough time!

« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2010, 02:09:08 AM »

Ok, you are definitely human if you hate politics

Thanks for your advice, it is much appreciated. Thats not aimed at just Sil but everyone


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ajohnson

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Re: Learning and never enough time!

« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2010, 09:11:14 PM »

Quote from: sil on July 20, 2010, 01:08:01 PM

I've spent more hours in the last week behind a computer than most normal people would spend in 2 months.

That is certainly part of it. I described what I "do for fun" for someone who asked the other day, and they condescendingly replied, "So you just sit in front of a computer all the time?" The other part is having a genuine interest in the material. A lot of the guys I work with hate that there is an expectation that they should be putting in time outside of work to improve their knowledge/skills. There is clearly some ill will that I put up 2-3 certs per quarter while they don't even do that in a year. I also don't have cable and spend a good portion of my leisure time tinkering with security stuff. Nothing I do is magic or special.

I guess another part would probably be biting the bullet and being able to learn things you don't want to. I'm also not a fan of a lot of the BS managerial aspects of security, but I get stuck working with a lot of that too. I'm doing my first formal policy review this week, and in addition to a lot of other research and review I've done in advance, I read an entire security policy book during my flight on Monday. I'm extremely ADHD and hated every page of it, but it needed to be done. I've done similar things with risk management, IT audits, BCP/DRP, vendor management, etc.

And for the record, I think it would take me at least two years of intense study to even come close to sil's level of expertise. That's one of the reasons I love these types of forums and mailing lists. I'm competitive and OCD, so having exposure to these individuals really pushes me to better myself. I'll never be the best, but I'm definitely going to try, and I'll be much further along than had I just progressed as I felt like it.


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Knb15

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Re: Learning and never enough time!

« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2010, 09:25:05 PM »

Quote from: dynamik on July 21, 2010, 09:11:14 PM

Quote from: sil on July 20, 2010, 01:08:01 PM

I've spent more hours in the last week behind a computer than most normal people would spend in 2 months.

That is some very good insight there.


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