Home
Calendar
Certifications
Columns
Features
Forum
Resources
Vitals
Latest Additions
Jan 2009 Free Giveaway Sponsor - Black Hat DC
Scooby Doo and the Crypto Caper - Answers and Winners
Daemon - A Contest Revealed
Hacking: The Art of Exploitation 2nd Edition
Nov 2008 Free Giveaway - Winners
Dec 2008 Free Giveaway Sponsor - SANS
Santa Claus is Hacking to Town
Plug-N-Play Network Hacking
Nov 2008 Free Giveaway Sponsor - CWNP
Daemon - A Contest Begins Now
It Happened One Friday - Answers and Winners
Daemon - A Contest
Scooby Doo and the Crypto Caper
MS Blue Hat Hackers Headline Chicago Security Con
The Pen Testing Perfect Storm Webcast Series with Skoudis, Wright, Johnson
EH-Net Login
Welcome Guest.
Username:
Password:
Remember me
Lost Password?
No account yet?
Register
Who's Online
We have 26 guests and 2 members online
EH-Net Donations
Enter Amount:
$
CAD
USD
GBP
AUD
JPY
EUR
Google Ads
EH-Net News Feeds
Latest Additions
Book Recommendations
You are here:
Home
Forum
Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certifications
Forensics
Working for the dark side
Ethical Hacker Community Forums
January 09, 2009, 02:35:33 PM
Welcome,
Guest
. Please
login
or
register
.
Did you miss your
activation email?
1 Hour
1 Day
1 Week
1 Month
Forever
Login with username, password and session length
News
: ChicagoCon 2009 - May 4 - 9. Boot Camps & an Ethical Hacking Conf.
www.chicagocon.com
Home
Help
Calendar
Login
Register
Ethical Hacker Community Forums
>
Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certifications
>
Forensics
(Moderator:
don
) >
Working for the dark side
Pages: [
1
]
Go Down
« previous
next »
Print
Author
Topic: Working for the dark side (Read 2097 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
jimbob
Sr. Member
Offline
Posts: 333
Working for the dark side
«
on:
November 18, 2008, 05:48:15 AM »
Hi,
I've noticed a significant prejudice against computer forensic professionals who work for the defense. Some professional bodies will deny you admission if you have ever worked for a defendant and you may find a lot of other doors closed to you if you do this. Certain tools for example are only available to law enforcement.
I believe computer forensics to be an extension of forensic science. I also believe that justice cannot be served by making the forensic process a closed system not open to scrutiny. In science peer review is important to ensure the validity of the scientific process and it's conclusions.
Does this attitude exist, and if so does it hold back the progress of computer forensics?
Jimbob
Logged
Artful Dodger
Newbie
Offline
Posts: 28
Re: Working for the dark side
«
Reply #1 on:
November 18, 2008, 08:25:41 AM »
I havent found this to be so. There may be personal issues out there were someone has a problem with you working for the defense. But Industry wide I havent run into anythin gremotley close to this.
A big part to remember is forensics is forensics. Just like testing DNA...it is or isnt. If you gain a reputation for being professional and honest, you should have no problems. Plus, everyone knows that the defense is not always guilty. Now if you turn into a scum bag that gets a CP person off under false pretense or technicality...you should probably punch yourself in the face. but that is just a personal view:)
Logged
pseud0
Full Member
Offline
Posts: 154
Re: Working for the dark side
«
Reply #2 on:
November 18, 2008, 12:43:45 PM »
Actually, I have seen this. There are at least two very well know groups (that I will refrain from naming) that will not accept you into the group, or remove you from the group, if they find out you worked as an expert witness for the defense in a criminal matter. If you talk to the group members the prevailing opinion is that when you work for the defense, almost 100% of the time you are helping them make their case by challenging the methods or ability of another forensics analyst. If you are attacking their methods (tools, the science behind data forensics, standard approaches, etc), then you are actually attacking the entire practice of forensics which is bad for the community. If you attack the ability of the other analyst, then this is often viewed as a personal attack against someone that was trying to catch a crook. I don't necessarily agree with these arguments, but I hear them a lot. With that being said, if someone screwed up the case, then they screwed up the case. Period. Also, if you do your own analysis and can present evidence that is valid and relevant to the case (ex. you find out that someone's system was actually hacked into and the illegal activities might not have been performed by the system owner but by the intruder) then that should absolutely be presented in court. However, whatever your motivation might be, as soon as you sit on the other side of the isle there are just going to be repercussions.
Logged
CISSP, CISM
jimbob
Sr. Member
Offline
Posts: 333
Re: Working for the dark side
«
Reply #3 on:
November 18, 2008, 01:51:57 PM »
Thanks pseud0, I think you pretty much summed up the feeling behind this attitude to defense expert witnesses. What leaves a sour taste in my mouth is the notion that those who put forensic practice under scrutiny are at fault. That's not how I understand justice to work.
Jimbob
Logged
Artful Dodger
Newbie
Offline
Posts: 28
Re: Working for the dark side
«
Reply #4 on:
November 19, 2008, 03:34:23 PM »
I agree with that first part. I guess there should have been a disclaimer. If you are providing valid data, you are a good guy regardless of who you represent. If you are picking apart another forensic expert you can be frowned on. But really I think it all has to do with the situation. If you argue on the defense about a specific practice that the other party used to prove a child porn case...punch yourself (unless it is absolutley legit and not a goofy technicality in a growing and erratic feild). But if you work for the defense and show that it was indeed from a virus or different user...that is a different case.
Logged
ChrisG
EH-Net Columnist
Hero Member
Offline
Posts: 1049
Re: Working for the dark side
«
Reply #5 on:
November 20, 2008, 10:57:21 AM »
what if you did a forensics exam and found something contrary to what the other guy found?
havent there been cases where the defense forensics guy did find the possibility that the 1st analyst missed potential compromises or other issues?
Logged
...tests i took go here...
http://carnal0wnage.blogspot.com/
pseud0
Full Member
Offline
Posts: 154
Re: Working for the dark side
«
Reply #6 on:
November 20, 2008, 06:40:40 PM »
There are always going to be cases where one side or the other missed something, but more often than not the defense is going to push for any shred of reasonable doubt based on concepts rather than facts. It's become very common for the defense to latch onto any shred of malware as possible "proof" that their client did not download that 4GB of child pr0n. I don't care how security conscious you are, you are almost guaranteed to have some artifact of malware on your system. There were a couple of high profile cases where the defense argument was based around files that were left behind when the system anti-virus identified a malware and disabled/removed most of the affected files. Of course it missed some which were left behind but not functional. The defense argued that it proved the system had been compromised at some time in the past, and it created reasonable doubt because a "hacker" could have used the machine to download the pics. None of the timestamps lined up, but of course that's because the "hacker" changed them all. He also arranged all of the pictures into a nice, organized set of folders. Anyway, in this case the forensics analysts produced the same data (what was on the system) but the defense was based on their version of what that data was saying.
Logged
CISSP, CISM
Pages: [
1
]
Go Up
Print
« previous
next »
Jump to:
Please select a destination:
-----------------------------
EH-Net
-----------------------------
=> Special Events
=> Calendar Of Events
===> ChicagoCon 2007
===> ChicagoCon 2008s
===> ChicagoCon 2008f
===> ChicagoCon 2009
=> News Items and General Discussion About EH-Net
-----------------------------
Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certifications
-----------------------------
=> Certification
===> The Charter Study Group - Pen Test
=> Network Pen Testing
===> CEH - Certified Ethical Hacker
=====> CEH - Official Course Modules v4
=====> CEH - Official Course Modules v5
=====> CEH - Official Course Modules v6
===> CPTS - Certified Pen Testing Specialist
=====> CPTS - Official Course Modules v5
===> CPTE - Certified Pen Testing Expert
=====> CPTE - Official Course Modules v1
===> ECSA - EC-Council Certified Security Analyst
=====> ECSA - Official Course Modules v1.2
=====> ECSA / LPT - Official Course Modules v3
===> OSCP - Offensive Security Certified Professional
===> GPEN - GIAC Certified Penetration Tester
=> Forensics
===> CCE / MCCE - (Master) Certified Computer Examiner
===> CHFI - Computer Hacking Forensic Investigator
=====> CHFI - Official Course Modules v2
===> EnCE - EnCase® Certified Examiner
=> Incident Response
===> CSIH - Computer Security Incident Handler
===> GCIH - GIAC Certified Incident Handler
=> Hardware
=> Malware
=> Physical Security
=> Programming
=> Social Engineering
=> Web Applications
=> Wireless
===> CWNP Certs
===> GAWN - GIAC Assessing Wireless Networks
===> OSWP - Offensive Security Wireless Professional
=> Other
-----------------------------
Columns
-----------------------------
=> Editor-In-Chief
=> Gates
=> Heffner
=> Hoffman
=> RichM
=> Murray
=> J. Peltier
=> Wilson
-----------------------------
Features
-----------------------------
=> /root
=> Book Reviews
=> Opinions
=> Skillz
===> Examples
===> May 06 - Star Hacks, Episode V: The Empire Hacks Back
===> July 06 - Hack Bill!
===> Sept 06 - Netcat in the Hat
===> Nov 06 - Hitch-Hackers Guide to the Galaxy
===> Dec 06 - A Christmas (Hacking) Story
===> Feb 07 - Charlottes Web Site
===> April 07 - Microsoft Office Space
===> June 07 - Serenity Hack
===> Oct 07 - Worst. Ethical. Hacker. Challenge. Ever.
===> Dec 07 - Frosty the Snow Crash
===> March 2008 - It Happened One Friday
===> Oct 2008 - Scooby Doo and the Crypto Caper
===> Dec 08 - Santa Claus Is Hacking to Town
-----------------------------
Resources
-----------------------------
=> Career Central
===> Looking For Work
===> Looking To Hire
=> Links to cool sites.
=> Mass Media
=> News from the Outside World
=> Tools
=> Tutorials
Loading...
Sponsors
Polls
How many security events including conferences and training do you attend a year:
1 - 2
3 - 4
5 - 6
7+
None - But want to
None - Choose not to
Support EH-Net
Support EH-Net by
Buying all of your
Amazon items using
the search bar above.
Try CBT Nuggets Free!
Recent Forum Topics
Wireless
: WEP cracking, how to ping router?
(1) by
jimbob
Oct 2008 - Scooby Doo and the Crypto Caper
: Skillz October 08 Winning Entry - Creative
(2) by
rforsythe
Other
: Windows 7 Beta Available Tomorrow
(3) by
jason
Book Reviews
: Need a book suggestion!
(5) by
unicityd
OSCP - Offensive Security Certified Professional
: Offensive Security Releases Sample Pen Testing Report
(2) by
Chan
Web Applications
: Determine URL from IP address
(3) by
scottr
Malware
: uninstall trend mciro officescan clients
(2) by
Hack_80
Other
: openSUSE 11.1 Released
(0) by
don
Other
: Insanity?
(5) by
jason
Other
: Fedora Hits the 10 Spot
(0) by
don
Other
: FreeBSD 7.1 Released
(0) by
don
OSCP - Offensive Security Certified Professional
: Next Up OSCP101 v2.0
(39) by
don
Tools
: Core Impact Essentials
(0) by
sgt_mjc
News from the Outside World
: Google branching out a little further...
(3) by
jason
Physical Security
: Magnetic stripe card spoofing
(5) by
jason
Gates
: Oracle version module for metasploit
(3) by
RoleReversal
Malware
: THe website is Evil but what to do??
(3) by
NickFnord
CEH - Certified Ethical Hacker
: Helow... help some tutorials...
(7) by
K3lV1n
CEH - Certified Ethical Hacker
: CEH is a scam
(20) by
K3lV1n
Mass Media
: Daniel Suarez Interview
(9) by
blackazarro
Malware
: Security Forecast for 2009
(5) by
jason
News from the Outside World
: Is this acceptable?
(9) by
jason
Wireless
: Wireless Pen Testing Cards
(6) by
jason
Oct 2008 - Scooby Doo and the Crypto Caper
: Skillz October 08 Winning Entry - Technical
(1) by
jason
Book Reviews
: [Article]-Mitnick - The Art Of Intrusion: Ch 1 - Hacking The Casinos For A Million Bu...
(5) by
jason
Links to cool sites.
: Free Computer Engineering Classes From Stanford
(3) by
jason
Oct 2008 - Scooby Doo and the Crypto Caper
: [Article]-Scooby Doo and the Crypto Caper - Answers and Winners
(2) by
jason
News Items and General Discussion About EH-Net
: [Article]-Jan 2009 Free Giveaway Sponsor - Black Hat DC
(1) by
jason
News Items and General Discussion About EH-Net
: EH-Net Milestone - 2 Articles Cross 1 Million Page Views
(3) by
BillV
Other
: What kind of lab, machines you have for your security testing?
(12) by
charlottebandit
Malware
: Network Virus Problem
(9) by
RoleReversal
Wireless
: WUSB600N good usb ?
(2) by
nap191
Other
: FBI code cracking challenge
(3) by
jimbob
Calendar Of Events
: RSA 2009
(0) by
don
Forensics
: Network Forensic tools/practice/techniques
(2) by
jimbob
Malware
: Autoplay when i try to open the drive.
(4) by
jimbob
CEH - Certified Ethical Hacker
: Any Practice Environment for learning tool for CEH?
(15) by
don
Wireless
: a petri-dish bridge
(2) by
don
CEH - Certified Ethical Hacker
: TFTP Tranfer time out
(5) by
jason
Tools
: tool to trace users
(8) by
pseud0
Vote For EH-Net
progenic.com
binarica.com
technorati fave
Privacy Notice
for TDCC & All Properties
© 2009 The Ethical Hacker Network
Joomla!
is Free Software released under the GNU/GPL License.