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You are here: Home arrow Forum arrow Resourcesarrow News from the Outside Worldarrow In defense of AVs
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October 12, 2008, 04:46:28 AM *
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Author Topic: In defense of AVs  (Read 1376 times)
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oneeyedcarmen
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« on: May 08, 2008, 02:17:58 PM »

I came across this blog by Kurt Wismer when reading the article I linked to about the 8 Dirty Secrets.

I think this guy must smoke a lot of crack...and apparently Mc-Laugh-ee and the like buy it for him.

Put down the pipe buddy.
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kwismer
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2008, 12:29:59 PM »

I came across this blog by Kurt Wismer when reading the article I linked to about the 8 Dirty Secrets.

I think this guy must smoke a lot of crack...and apparently Mc-Laugh-ee and the like buy it for him.

Put down the pipe buddy.

no drugs were involved in the making of that post... nor have i received any remuneration from mcafee or any other av company, ever...

if you don't understand who the intended audience for that post was (which would be sad since it's specified right in the post) then i'll type slowly for your benefit: it was meant for complete newbies - people who may or may not be computer literate but definitely know nothing about the anti-malware field (thus the heavy reliance on an analogy that was easier for the common person to relate to)...

if you have actual substantive complaints about the post (as opposed to suggesting i put down the crack pipe), perhaps you could share them...
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oneeyedcarmen
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2008, 01:07:51 PM »

You know what?  Maybe I went a little far with having some fun...and I'm sorry that it had to be at someone's expense...  Embarrassed

I did find your analogy humerous...poop and fart jokes will always make me laugh due to the 12 year old living in my brain. 

Quote from: Mr. Wismer
the only kind of evidence that would conclusively point to av vendors failing to keep up is a growing backlog of undetected malware... some people think the growing numbers of people who get hit with undetected malware while using up-to-date av products or the growing number of malware samples that are undetected at any given time is equivalent to this growing backlog but it isn't...

I wouldn't say that the backlog is EQUIVALENT to the number of people getting hit with undetected malware, but your own arguement pretty much does point out that there is a correllation.

If there is a backlog, which I'm pretty sure that everyone would agree there always will be, there will be undetected malware infecting "protected" systems.  Of course having AV is better than not, but surely you can see how if a company hires more people (as you pointed out) to reduce the backlog of unknown threats, those threats will then be known and hence avoided.  It is a never-ending, viscious cycle, but one that should be approached with a fervor by anyone purporting to sell a product that will protect their clients.

My initial attack/fun-poking was a bit unjustified, but again, really all in fun.  I have since gone back and read more of your blog.  Your issue for McAfee for selling "Total Protection" when there obviously is no such thing, is really the problem that I have with so many security companies.  A problem that leads to very many companies, and even more home users, having a false sense of security.





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kwismer
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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2008, 01:39:07 PM »

I did find your analogy humerous...poop and fart jokes will always make me laugh due to the 12 year old living in my brain.

it was just as fun to write, believe me... 

Quote
I wouldn't say that the backlog is EQUIVALENT to the number of people getting hit with undetected malware, but your own arguement pretty much does point out that there is a correllation.

A causes B, but the presence of B does not imply A... a backlog would cause the number of incidents to grow but it's not the only thing that causes the number of incidents to grow so a backlog cannot be inferred by incident growth...

Quote
If there is a backlog, which I'm pretty sure that everyone would agree there always will be, there will be undetected malware infecting "protected" systems.

this can happen without a backlog and not everyone would agree that there will always be a backlog... a backlog is not simply the set of malware that hasn't yet been analyzed... a backlog is the result of the difference between the malware production rate and the malware analysis rate (assuming such a difference exists)...

the set of as yet undetected malware is not by itself an indicator that such a difference exists as there must always be a period of time during which something newly created is unknown to others... futher, the growth of that set is also not an indication that such a difference exists, rather it is merely an indication that the malware production rate has increased (which we already knew from the malware submission rate)...

Quote
Of course having AV is better than not, but surely you can see how if a company hires more people (as you pointed out) to reduce the backlog of unknown threats, those threats will then be known and hence avoided.  It is a never-ending, viscious cycle, but one that should be approached with a fervor by anyone purporting to sell a product that will protect their clients.

this is the cost of compiling any list of things that increase in number... it's the same with compiling a list of known good programs (with the exception that the list of good programs is orders of magnitude larger and growing faster)...

Quote
My initial attack/fun-poking was a bit unjustified, but again, really all in fun.  I have since gone back and read more of your blog.  Your issue for McAfee for selling "Total Protection" when there obviously is no such thing, is really the problem that I have with so many security companies.  A problem that leads to very many companies, and even more home users, having a false sense of security.

exactly agreed... that's why i call it snake oil...
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ChrisG
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2008, 02:48:01 PM »

interesting, i'd just start shooting dog at that point or perhaps dig a hole for the poop. either way it may be  time to look for a new way of picking up the poo
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...tests i took go here...

http://carnal0wnage.blogspot.com/
kwismer
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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2008, 02:59:08 PM »

interesting, i'd just start shooting dog at that point or perhaps dig a hole for the poop. either way it may be  time to look for a new way of picking up the poo

there are actually already a number of options besides what people are normally familiar with as anti-virus...
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ChrisG
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2008, 03:41:59 PM »

can you point us to that blog post?
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...tests i took go here...

http://carnal0wnage.blogspot.com/
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