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You are here: Home arrow Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certificationsarrow Network Pen Testingarrow Do you need to know programming to hack?
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Author Topic: Do you need to know programming to hack?  (Read 42782 times)
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Kevan
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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2007, 04:38:26 PM »

So is C or C++ most recommended?
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don
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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2007, 04:54:30 PM »

It is according to our unscientific poll a couple months back. C/C++/C# won by a landslide.

Don
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Kevan
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« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2007, 05:38:50 PM »

Sounds stupid, which is the easiest to learn?
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plik
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« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2007, 06:29:23 PM »

Sounds stupid, which is the easiest to learn?

Don't think that sounds stupid at all.

I think different languages suit different people.

And it depends on what you're using it for, are you using it just to learn how to program or you've got a x that need to do y to and you want to learn how?

Take a look at a few tutorials for different languages and go with the one you feel most comfortable with till you've got the basics, then look at a more specific/useful one if it doesn't meet your needs.

I would recommend looking at perl at some point as there's tons of tutorials and documentation out there and I find it very useful.
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Kevan
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« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2007, 06:47:40 PM »

Well, I'll try and make this short. I have been wanting to make a program that when triggered by certain actions opens a given program. (i.e., a cracker is attempting to get into my system while I am out. As he tries one thing, this program recognizes the action and opens another to stop it, that doesn't work and it opens another.) I know that the human mind can outrun the programmed situations, but I think it would be beneficial to network admins and IT security technicians alike.
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Kev
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« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2007, 10:42:50 AM »

I admire your desire to learn programming.  That is a path that requires taking “baby steps” and the famous Hello World program really is not a bad place to start even if its over done.  You have taken the first step in programming. What is that? Simply coming up with an idea for a program. Its interesting how many people even with reasonable programming skills get stuck because they cant come up with an idea. It’s a little like trying to write a poem or some music. You might have the skill but not the inspiration.

Once you have your idea, then only experience will tell you if its an idea that will work.
Remember that programs like you suggested are always running in the back of an OS and use up resources.  You have to ask yourself “would that program slow everything down and make the server painful to work with?”  Sometimes its fun just to write a program and see were it takes you even if the results are not what you were hoping.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2007, 10:00:51 PM by Kev » Logged
LSOChris
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« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2007, 03:32:00 PM »

that's a pretty stout first program.

you should start learning about variable, conditionals, for/while loops (the basics) first.  those 3 things and learning how to string  them together will actually get you going in the right direction.
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Kevan
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« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2007, 04:01:16 PM »

Is there a way I can start hacking without the programming for now? I am having enough difficulties with my new OS as it is...
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LSOChris
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« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2007, 04:59:16 PM »

yeah buy a copy of hacking exposed and start reading
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Kev
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« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2007, 10:48:16 PM »

Kevan, I remember when I was a kid they use to sell these books in comic magazines that promised to teach the easy secret ninja death blows.  All you needed to know was the “secret” and you would be deadly.  I hope you don’t think that hacking is like that. There is no easy secret techniques out there that will make you a monster hacker that can give you the ability to get into any computer in the world if you desire.  So much depends on what level you want to rise to. 
 
True there are some programs you can learn to use that are just point and click or do a few simple command line entries.  Using Nmap to find a target and then scan it for vulnerabilities from Nessus and then see if you have a corresponding exploit in Metasploit is not really that hard.  The problem is, you really are very limited to a few vulnerable targets out there that you can breach with techniques like that. If you want to be a security tester, what good are your skills if you can only penetrate 5 or 10% of the boxes out there? Are you doing your client any good when testing your security?  They trust you that you are hacking at a high level and if you certify their system as well prepared, they need to count on that because there can be millions of dollars at stake.  If you really want to hack for a living and test networks, you need to go way beyond that.
 
So if you want to be really good you are making a life time commitment in my opinion. Perhaps 4 or 5 years down the road you might feel comfortable enough to feel you can do some decent hacking.  One problem is, once you know something well it is already getting outdated, lol!  To this day I see hackers in 3 levels. The script kiddies that only can breach 5% of the boxes and are limited to tools they find on the internet.  The 2nd level are security professional that use similar tools but have such an expertise and knowledge of networks that they can be very effective. And finally the highest and scariest level of hacker that is not only very skilled with common tools, but might have customized them or maybe written his own. He is a high level programmer and can write his own exploits. He can write his own root kits and Trojans that anti virus cant detect. He understands the OS he is attacking and the network on which it is a part. He has a good idea of firewalls and has a good idea of how to pass through it or if its even possible. He or She is very clever and can see things from a totally different and creative way.  Some people call that thinking outside the box. Whatever.  I hope you can see from my post that there is so much to learn to get really good.  Its kind of like wanting to learn the guitar. Sure you could learn 3 chords and that’s it, but if you want to be a master, you will need to spend years practicing and learning. 
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Kevan
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« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2007, 12:26:42 PM »

To answer your question, no. I do not expect hacking to be easy. However, I have not come to this forum recently as I asked a simple question at one point that was not answered. I simply wanted to know how you (or any other hacker reading this) started. There is a great difference between knowledge, wisdom and experience. I have been directed to a lot of informative sites that are great supplies of knowledge, but if I don't know how to apply it, what good does it do me?
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« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2007, 01:35:56 PM »

Kevan,
   I was in a mentoring presentation the other day.  One idea that the presenter touched on was delayed satisfaction.  What that means is this:  noticeable results are going to take a while.  Instantaneous satisfaction is only going to happen in a few things and then it is generally limited.  Be patient, keep plugging away, follow the advice that people give you, and explore (test the boundaries) of everything you touch.  Just be conscious of the legal and ethical lines that our society has drawn.  You don't want to go to jail but you do want to push the limits because that is how we grow as individuals and as a society.

Read the advice here.  Seek advice in other places.  Run things so that you make your own mistakes.  And you will find that with time you, and others, will be satisfied with your progress.

Probably a little too deep for here.  But I'll offer it up anyway.
Cutaway
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don
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« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2007, 01:46:08 PM »

This would be just like a doctor having to learn anatomy before he can see patients. There's a lot he has to learn before he can even fathom all of the ways in which to use that knowledge.

Now we're not suggesting that you blindly follow our advice and visit a bunch of links, but at the same time, many of the suggestions are there to push you towards learning the "anatomy" of a network or the "anatomy" of a program.

So as many things in life, you may not know "what good it does you" until you get a stronger foundation underneath you.

But let me ask you this... if hacking networks is your thing and the accepted standard for networking is TCP/IP, wouldn't you want to know everything there is to know about TCP/IP? As you begin to study, new questions arise and you start to understand "how to apply it" that never occured to you before you started. And no one can ever list for you all of the ways to apply any type of knowledge.

As for not getting a response to your simple question, I think the EH-Net community has been very open and giving to you. You even mentioned yourself that you got flamed on other sites for newbie questions. I also see the amount of help you've gotten with Fluxbox. This site is not dedicated to that topic, yet you got more help here than you did from linuxquestions.org.

So you want a starting point, you've been given it. Most of us started on the networking side, but you've been given many responses on the programming side here in this thread. Whether you take that advice is your choice and how you use our advice is up to you.

Free will brother! It can be your best friend or your biggest excuse.

Hope this helps,
Don
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LSOChris
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« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2007, 04:17:45 PM »

  Hacking is about making programs/software/protocols ( or people, but we'll stick to software for now) do things they werent designed or intended to do.

so how do you make something do something it isnt supposed to do?  9/10 times you need to be really familiar with the thing you are trying to  break. wether it be TCP/IP, routers, PC's, operating systems, etc.  If you want to break it; you need to know everything (or alot at least) about it.

can you fire up nmap with little knowledge and do a port scan, yes of course.  can  you probably get some exploit code compiled and launch it against some IP's and maybe pop a shell, yes of course.   script kidz do it all the time it doesnt mean they know what they are doing or that they are professionals.

becoming a good security professional is about being well rounded in the disciplines of information security.  How do  you do that?  you start with the  basics; hardware (A+), networking (Network+), Operating Systems (Linux+, MS exams), Basic Security (Security+), routers (Cisco), etc.

A good security professional is also (usually) one or more of the following: Help Desk, SysAdmin, Mail guy, router guy, IA guy, database guy, webmaster guy, etc.

you can spend years on all that stuff above but you'll find that those building blocks help you understand what is going on with security and with exploits and that's really the ultimate goal; understanding how things break and then learning how to break them yourself.

what Cutaway said has some real value and i hope you read and take heed

"One idea that the presenter touched on was delayed satisfaction.  What that means is this:  noticeable results are going to take a while."

this is sooo much the case in Security and IT in general.  you keep plugging away and putting information into your brain and experience under your belt and then one day you'll wake up and realize you know more that half the people in the room about X, then later you'll realize you know more that 90% of the people in the room about Y.  it takes YEARS for this.

If you want instant gratificaiton go try another hobby, because you wont get it in IT or Security.

so to answer your question of how i started...

i have a computer science bachelors degreee so i learned the basics of programing and networking, i then started working thru Certifications.  Not to get the certs but more to learn the material (certs vs actual knowledge is whole other discussion). I got  bit by the security bug after going to DEFCON out of sheer luck, after that i had found what i wanted to do with myself.   i built a lab and started learning how to work some of the tools in hacking exposed or in tutorials i read online.  And after making an ass of myslef on forums and asking stupid questions i eventually learned, like we are all hinting to you, that if you ask a good question, you will most likely get a good answer back.  if you ask the question you could have just typed into google you'll probably just get flamed and rightly so. 

most people dont give up what they have learned thru their own hard work easily.  dont expect them to.  ask a good question and you may get a hint on where to look for the answer.  that's probably more than most of us got when we were learning.

sorry if it sounds harsh but that's just the way it is.
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Craig
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« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2007, 08:42:51 PM »

Kevan,

Just to drop my two cents into the bucket here:

Definately heed what Chris, Don and Cutaway have said, they really know their stuff. Honestly I would give it a couple years (maybe less depending on your previous experience) before you start making some serious headway in the subject of computer security. But just to give you a light at the end of the tunnel:

When I began learning about computers it was for the specific purpose of learning about computer security. At first I looked for those quick fixes, but soon realized that the "d00d, t3ln3t int0 p0rt 80 and h4x0r them!!!" tutorials just weren't going to cut it. So, I started learning the basics (as Chris suggested above) and got my A+ cert. During that time I also printed out what must have been about 1000 pages worth of tutorials and information about programming, TCP/IP, and Linux/Windows. I was in a unique position at the time where during my free hours I had little distractions and also got a lot of free computer books; I learned quite a bit and must say that I have yet to find a subject related to computing that wasn't fascinating. I've done the tech support gig, LAMP administration, Web design/development and just now am starting to get some security-specific jobs. If you don't focus on just learning security-specific subjects, you can achieve almost instant gratification and will be building yourself up for success later down the road. So you learned to write the simplest 'hello world' program today? Awesome! That's more than most people will learn about computers in a lifetime. Just enjoy what you're learning and let it lead you to bigger and better things.

The best way to learn things is to just do it. Learning about computers is great, because unlike learning some other professions like open heart surgery, you can fool around with things on your own and create your own experiences. Go register a domain name from yahoo for $4 and set up a Linux server (runs great on old hardware for small sites and such) to host a Web site. Maybe even offer to host some simple sites for some friends. This alone will force you to learn about things like DNS, HTTP, and Apache configuration.

And to answer the $60 question (kind of): no, you don't NEED to learn how to program in order to learn about computer security. But when ./scan && ./exploit fails, it's an invaluable skill to have.

P.S. - FYI, I don't think this tunnel ever gets any shorter... Cheesy
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