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61  Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certifications / Malware / How do you view handles in the latest OllyDbg on: April 14, 2012, 03:13:21 PM
With older versions of Olly there is a handle window you can go to, but I haven't been able to figure out how to view handles in Olly 2.01 Alpha 4.  Anyone know?
62  Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certifications / Malware / Re: Practical Malware Analysis - Webinar/release on: March 19, 2012, 03:04:31 PM
To become a great malware analyst, do I need to know how to read assembly language or actually know how to program in assembly language. Kind of the same question for C++ as well ?

I'm sure to be great you would have to understand assembly.  When you're analyzing malware the assembly is already there so you don't really have to know how to write assembly, just read it.  However, to be great in malware analysis, or security in general, you would have to know how to program in a high level languages like C++, Python, etc.
63  Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certifications / GCIH - GIAC Certified Incident Handler / Re: Giveaway: SANS GIAC GCIH Practice Test on: March 08, 2012, 10:32:01 AM
You guys are posting in a thread from 2009.
64  Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certifications / Malware / Re: Practical Malware Analysis - Webinar/release on: March 07, 2012, 08:13:18 PM
Cool so would you say this book is good for someone who has never done any malware analysis ?

I've been reading about malware analysis for a while, but this is the first time I'm actually putting it to use.  The book starts off easy and gets more technical.  I'm on chapter 17 and have done a few labs and so far it is easy to understand, except for chapter 15 on anti-disassembly.  That was tough for me.

I'd say it's a good book to start off with, but it can't teach you everything about malware analysis.  You will probably need to supplement it with google searchers, questions of forums, and by reading other malware books.

The previous reading I've done on assembly has definitely helped me understand this book.
65  Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certifications / Programming / Re: Ruby and Python on: March 01, 2012, 11:16:15 AM
At the risk of being laughed off these boards...if you're a true beginner, some of the Head First books are pretty good. I've used a couple of them and have been generally satisfied. They cover the very basics, in some cases introducing the reader to variables, loops, conditional statements, etc. Plus they give you more or less real world exercises to do. Again, not for the experienced programmer but pretty good for the beginner.

I read a Head First book on data analysis and found the layout hard to read.  There were images with a little bit of text scattered all over the page and I got eye strain from my eyes skipping all over the place trying to find where to read.  I guess the content was okay.
66  Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certifications / Network Pen Testing / Re: Is Hacking training doing us wrong? on: February 24, 2012, 08:50:41 AM
The CEH is an entry level penetration testing certification.  I'm sure it doesn't go into much detail on the forensics side of security so you won't be able to say "this is what happened, and this is how they did it."  The CEH is supposed to give you the basics on how to attack computers, rather than detect and investigate attacks.  Heck, even forensics is a huge field which causes people to have to specialize in certain areas of forensics.

You need to find an area to specialize in and once you understand that, then you can think about branching out to other areas.
67  Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certifications / Malware / Re: Practical Malware Analysis pre-order special on: February 19, 2012, 04:23:07 PM
Looks good but sadly seem to be USA only offer you guys get all the good stuff Tongue

http://nostarch.com/newsletters/practicalmalwareanalysis.htm

I've seen this all over twitter and this is the first time I've heard someone say it was only for the US.
68  Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certifications / Malware / Re: Practical Malware Analysis pre-order special on: February 19, 2012, 12:57:22 PM
What kind of knowledge would you need to have to fully understand most subjects in the book?

Paraphrasing the prerequisites part...

Chapters 1 - 3 you'll be able to understand without security or programming experience.
Chapters 4 - 14 provide you with intermediate skills needed to analyze most malware.  You'll should have programming experience.
Chapters 15 - 19 are advanced and cover sophisticated malware that use self-defending techniques.

I'm almost on chapter 7 (skipped chapter 5 on IDA Pro) and I haven't had a problem understanding anything, but I've already been reading some stuff on assembly.  I think they do a good job on explaining it to someone who doesn't know anything about assembly.

You can also read chapter 12 and check out the preview on Amazon.com to see for yourself.
69  Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certifications / Malware / Re: Practical Malware Analysis pre-order special on: February 19, 2012, 08:11:32 AM
Breezed through the Primer and First chapter. The Primer provides a basic introduction, but not sure about the message its trying to provide with the following:
"Knowing the type of malware helps speed up the analysis, then lists down the types of malware and immediately follows it with caveat stating that one should not get too caught up with classifying the type of malware."


The first chapter talks about basic static analysis, with strings and reading the PE header.

Need to continue reading the book. Smiley






I think what the authors were trying to say was knowing the general functionality of malware can be helpful in analysis, but since a lot of malware falls into multiple categories you shouldn't get too caught up in trying to give it a name.
70  Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certifications / Other / Re: Ethics and security research on: February 14, 2012, 04:22:49 PM
Do you seriously think that whitehat security researchers are leading the curve here? There may be pockets of genius that generate additional risk due to teaching blackhats techniques they did not know about, but by and large we are playing catchup. The bad guys have enormous resources to deploy here, far more than we can hope to match. Just because we don't know about that cool new antiforensic technique does not mean that it is not being utilized already. It just means we are blind to its usage. It's not like the bad guys share all their tips and tricks in some secret club. They are monetizing these attacks and just like any corporate IP, it's often a trade secret. Sometimes you see them bundled in exploit packs and sold to other criminal groups, but the really juicy stuff is kept closely guarded from what I've seen. What you are suggesting is highly dangerous and would be a huge step backwards in the progress we have been fighting for years with regards to information sharing.

No, I don't think security researchers are leading the curve, I think they sometimes do research that benefits blackhats more than whitehats.

I'm aware that there are tools and techniques out there blackhats are using we don't know about.  That's why part of security research should be threat intelligence.

Information sharing is great.  The problem is if the information like anti-forensics consists of problems without any solutions then I don't think the "research" has helped us.  It's helped the bad guys.
71  Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certifications / Other / Re: Ethics and security research on: February 14, 2012, 03:31:19 PM
I will agree that providing fixes along with what is broken provides significant value, but raising awareness that something is broken may help someone else devise a solution on the back of the breaker's research or help organizations avoid unnecessarily insecure implementations of the flawed technology in upcoming projects. If I don't know something is possible (like anti-forensics) I will make flawed assumptions about what is happening on my network. What if I did not know about the latest cool antiforensic technique and I made a rapid judgement based on faulty information that cost some poor shlub his job, or sent him to jail? I just might be able to compensate for these failures if I have enough information to understand how the attack is carried out or at least be able to educate management so we don't jump to conclusions. Maybe that malware evasion technique could be detected in other ways not previously thought of, maybe I could write a Snort signature to detect it. But if as a security researcher I don't know about the evasion technique, how would I even know where to start my research or even understand it was necessary? Burying your head in the sand does not further our collective knowledge. Understanding of real world techniques does. This whole thread comes off like a huge troll. I am truly astounded, do we really need to have this discussion in 2012?

</rant>

As I said, a vulnerability has to be known to be a problem.  There is a difference between not knowing "the latest cool antiforensic technique" that is currently known and being used in the wild, and a security researcher creating new, previously unknown anti-forensic techniques that helps attackers get away with crimes.

Security is a journey, not a destination.  So when a security researcher creates a new anti-forensic technique in an effort to force the forensic community to fix a vulnerability that wasn't being exploited in the first place, and not even give solutions to the problem they've discovered; the researcher is just adding weight to our back as we go on the never ending journey of trying to reach security.

I think my land mine analogy applies to this situation pretty well.
72  Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certifications / Other / Re: Ethics and security research on: February 14, 2012, 01:37:57 PM
Why are you under the impression that there are no ethics in security research? From my perspective, it seems like most people try to adhere to responsible disclosure procedures. Maybe you're not hearing about those because they're not major news (i.e. quietly being credited in a patch report). Irresponsible disclosure seems like a surefire way to burn bridges in the industry, and most professionals are looking to further their career, not sink it. Some people may only be after notoriety, but I do not think they are the majority.

I think it's foolish to assume that no one else knows of a vulnerability. Like Ziggy said, if a vulnerability exists, it's a vulnerability regardless of how many people know about it. I know people that discover dozens by just letting fuzzers run in the background. If there are hundreds or thousands of others doing that as well, more than one person will stumble upon the same vulnerability sooner or later.

Maybe you only identify it as a DoS vulnerability while someone else has nearly completed a stable exploit for it. Is it ethical to withhold information until a vulnerability is being widely exploited? What if the vulnerability is being exploited in targeted attacks and isn't shown as "active in the wild?"

If the vendor can't/won't patch it in a timely manner, it's still beneficial to notify AV, IPS, and similar vendors that can compensate by beefing up other security controls. Likewise, administrators may be able to take steps to protect themselves as well (i.e. disabling a non-essential service that has a critical remotely-exploitable vulnerability).

I wasn't suggesting all security researchers are unethical.  And it's not about the type of disclosure, it's that a lot of researchers seem to focus their research on breaking security rather than fixing security.  For example:

1.  A researcher who creates a new technique for malware to evade detection and not even provide a single way to detect it.

2.  The researchers who discovered a critical flaw in BGP, one they say wasn't being used in the wild and that they have no idea how to fix it; yet told people about it anyway.  No one was using it, no ways to mitigate it and now blackhats know about it.  I don't think we're better off now.

3.  Researcher who gives a presentation on a new stealthy botnet he created.  A guy giving a lecture on new ways to keep a botnet from being detected doesn't help defend computers.

4.  Researchers who develop new anti-forensic tools & techniques.  Helping attackers get away with crimes is not helping defend computers.

etc.


Say the US signed a treaty to not use land mines.  Do you really think it would be a good idea for the US to publish research on how they created a new and improved land mine that will be used against them?  Sure you could say you're being proactive, but over all you're going to be a lot worse off.
73  Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certifications / Other / Re: Ethics and security research on: February 14, 2012, 12:36:26 PM
I'd rather know about it before the bad guys find out so that I can defend proactively.

If there weren't "whitehat" researchers out there doing research and publicly disclosing it, we would only be able to reactively defend our networks. You get into the same type of rat race that AV vendors are in with signature based detection. You can't detect until you have a sample. When you collect a sample, you're already owned and you will continue to be owned up until the point when the AV vendor gets a signature out.

Being proactive is important in almost everything, but I don't think it's appropriate when it comes to security researchers developing new tools and techniques that are going to be used against us.  They're fixing a problem that didn't exist until they discovered it.  Even if they offer some solutions for mitigating the attack (sometimes they don't even do that), it's still just mitigating it.  It's making the defense more complicated because it's yet another thing we have to defend against.

I think security researschers should focus on researching attacks that are currently being used in the wild and help find ways to defend computers rather than create new ways to attack computers.  If you're in a war you don't want to develop new weapons that are only going to be used against you just for the sake of being proactive incase the other country might of created the weapons on their own.



Also, how do you determine what other people know and don't know? When a researcher states that he/she doesn't think that their discovered vulnerability isn't being exploited in the wild, that's conjecture on their part. It also doesn't take into account whether or not some "blackhat" researcher isn't on the verge of making the same discovery.

You can never prove a negative, but they can research it... they should be good at it. Smiley  Google, network with other security researchers, analyze comunication, infiltrate hacker chat rooms, reverse engineer malware, honeypots, Web Server Log Project, etc.
74  Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certifications / Other / Re: Ethics and security research on: February 14, 2012, 11:47:33 AM
If you are a security researcher and you keep your research to yourself, no one knows about the attack or how to detect it. In releasing information about the attack you are creating awareness of the attack which in turn creates awareness of how to detect/prevent the attack.

I'm sure there are a number of times when a "whitehat" researcher provided valuable, previously unknown attack information to "blackhats." But I think more often than not, the "whitehat" is providing the general public information about attacks that are already going on.

If there is already evidence of the technique being used in the wild then yeah I'm all for creating awareness and fixing it, but a lot of times it's a new technique that even the researchers may say they don't think is occurring in the wild.


Regarding your definition of a vulnerability being a known weakness, I would argue with that. You are vulnerable whether you know about it or not.


It's not about whether I know about the vulnerability, it's about no one at all knowing about the vulnerability.  If no one knows about the vulnerability then there is no one to exploit it.  There very well may be a technique to turn lead into gold discovered someday, but at the moment we aren't vulnerable to that because no one is doing it because no one even knows how.
75  Ethical Hacking Discussions and Related Certifications / Other / Ethics and security research on: February 14, 2012, 11:19:07 AM
Why does it seem like there isn't really much ethics in security research?

I often see security researchers discover a new technique that can be used for breaking into computers or evading detection and the goal is supposedly to force white hats to fix the problem that didn't exist until the researcher created it.  A vulnerability is a known weakness, and if black hats aren't using it then developing tools and techniques that black hats can use, even if you provide a fix is just making the defense more complicated.  It's one more attack we have to look out for. 

I don't think we'll ever see a black hat like a carder discover a new technique law enforcement could use to catch them and then make it public in an effort to force other black hats to fix the problem.
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